Interview - Leanne Payne Part 2 PDF


Written by Dr. David Kyle Foster   
Monday, 01 September 2008 10:42


DAVID: That's very true, even today, in the church. You know, when I was a pagan actor, I used to get high on marijuana and watch Katherine Kuhlman on TV. I was so captivated by her. I even went to her office in Hollywood. I had to meet this lady. I didn't know Christ from anybody, I just had to meet Katherine Kuhlman. She wasn't there, but that was the extent to which the Holy Spirit in her really captured me.

LEANNE: You know, God greatly used her. That dear old thing didn't have much protection from the media. I mean, the hatred of woman is just so great and the slandering of her - it's just amazing that she did as well as she did.

DAVID: How is a homosexual healed?

LEANNE: The same way anyone else is. Their bentness toward the same sex . . . . once this emotional dependency is sexualized . . . . every healing within is different. There are no two healings alike. But there's really no such thing as homosexuality. There's always something deeper there that is the real problem. It's never the neurosis. The behavior, the sexual behavior is a defense against some kind of pain. It's a defense against neurosis is what it is. So they have to . . . . we have to go back to that place . . . . and we've got to find the real pain, the real source, the real thing that's amiss . . . . and God does it so quickly.

DAVID: How do you find that root cause?

LEANNE: Well, it doesn't take long. I almost hesitate to say how you find it, but I just invoke the Holy Spirit and invite that repentant one into the presence of God, you know . . . . if they really want to serve God . . . . and I ask Him to come into their memories, and the Lord comes present pretty quickly for whatever that is.

DAVID: So God then reveals . . . .

LEANNE: He does, so quickly, so quickly.

DAVID: So it's not something I can learn to ferret out.

LEANNE: Well, you know I usually talk with them a little before and I can pretty well tell just from talking to people because I'm praying for so many. It's amazing how . . . . You know I usually don't talk with someone or pray with them more than once or twice. They do need to get into programs like you have and like Andy Comiskey has, and the other programs that you know so well about. Many of them come to four and five PCM's until they're ministering the way Mario or Clay is. But in terms of asking God to go into their memories and to the root cause . . . . I can ask them, "We're you happy as a child?" If you were happy as a child, then I'll know that it will be later. I'll say, "When did you begin to be unhappy?" And they'll think a minute and they'll say, "Well, it was so and so at such and such a time", and I'll say, "Well what happened just before that?" Then you've gotten back. And with the girls so often it will be a sexual affair or it will be something like this, something traumatic, something dark where they've gotten off on the wrong track.

DAVID: So then you call the Holy Spirit to come and heal the . . . .

LEANNE: There's a repentance . . . . the office of the confessional here breaking the power of sin over . . .. you know in this class how we have renounced the sin of misogyny, and confessed it today? It is amazing what God did in that classroom today. The power of the confession of sin . . . . it is amazing.

DAVID: How can the child sex abuser be healed? Most people don't think they even can be.

LEANNE: Well they can - the same way anybody else is healed. I talked a little about restoring the pedophile in Restoring the Christian Soul. This cannibal compulsion. There you've got the lost childhood and they're trying to swallow it up in some young boy, you know, the childhood they never had. You can deal with the neurosis but if they've acted it out they're going to have to get healed or be put in a place where they cannot abuse children.

DAVID: So then, how do they actually get healed once they've discovered why they're doing what they're doing? How do they get healed of it? How does the compulsion get removed?

LEANNE: Through the same way that all homosexuality gets healed, all compulsion gets healed - through the practice of the presence. You know there's one who has a ministry now who comes to my PCM. He started writing to me when he was in jail. He was listening to my tapes and he received the most incredible healing. I know the jailers would say, "We're going to get you", you, know, "You guys never go straight." They were trying to . . . . I guess they were trying to scare him so he'd go straight, I don't know. But prison officials don't think these people can ever be healed, but they can. I know a number of them. There are some of them that don't want to be healed and we're going to have to put them away. And we need to do everything we can do to shield young boys from sexual abuse. Dreadful thing! Just as we need to shield young girls.

DAVID: If someone comes to you and says they're involved in that, what do you do because of the need to protect further victims, besides ministering to them of course?

LEANNE: I think there are laws now. You know, I'm fortunate in that any of them that have ever confessed to me, they're ready to be healed. So, I don't have to do anything except help along the healing. But there'll be those where priests will hear their confessions and I don't think that the government is going to abide by the confessional anymore in this area. I think things are changing and I think that we need to think through this issue. I don't know if you've done much thinking about that or not, David, but I tell you, I move to get that family involved and make sure they know. You've got to do something, you've got to do something.

DAVID: What are the roots of addictive behavior? A lot of people are just addictive personalities. If they're not acting out sexually, they are acting out with food, or they're acting out with drugs. If they stop taking drugs, they'll become an alcoholic . . . . it just channels into another thing. What is the root of that and how do you just kill it?

LEANNE: These compulsions come about as defenses against pain of some sort, and if there's not meaning in a life and there's intense separation anxiety, or even to a lesser degree, if there's even just boredom in a life . . . . We're made in the image of God and so we're makers, and if that creative energy isn't going out at the higher level, at the highest level, it's going to be coming out at some level compulsively. So, with the addictive personality . . . . today, young people have so little to occupy them. They don't have to work hard. Many of them - their parents have expected very little of them, you know, their powers to create and to make haven't been called upon, so you have that. But then you also have the one who is obsessive-compulsive because there's separation anxiety.

DAVID: So ultimately, the healing is the same healing as you talk about with all of these other things.

LEANNE: Yes, that's why if they want to do spiritual formation, the same thing works for everybody. It's the most amazing thing!

Dorothy Sayers writes about the six other deadly sins. The moderns like to think about all of them under one form of lust and they consider other people who are covetous and gluttonous and all these kinds of things as not immoral -they're immoral, too. You know, your going to need the same healing.

DAVID: How can parents avoid all of these problems in their children, and raise a healthy child?

LEANNE: Well, we're all fallen, and I don't know that we can avoid it all. I think there can be really good parenting and a child go astray. You know that. Simply, if you've got a sacred space - your home, that's dedicated to God, and you've given them the Word and you've lived it before them . . . . knowing about the Word isn't split off from living it . . . . experiencing it . . . . then your children will return to it just as the scripture says. You know, the truth in Christianity will stand up with any ideology of the day. It needs to be out there in the marketplace. We have a system that works and it happens to be true. It's incredible. And when you've given that to a child everything else is less than that. And unless they simply want to be separate, unless they choose hell - the hell of self - they'll come back to it.

DAVID: I think that being an example of it working yourself, I think that's what I missed.

LEANNE: You don't fool a child.

DAVID: I had the information of Christianity but I didn't have the example of it working in the family.

LEANNE: That's right. But look at you now.

DAVID: That's right, I came back to it.

LEANNE: You didn't stop till you got the truth. You didn't stop till you got the truth. That could have turned you off forever . . . . you know, the other. Oh, my goodness. It's a dreadful thing to grow up in hypocrisy, where there's the Word but there's not the reality. And that wasn't a conscious thing. Your father and mother needed help.

DAVID: What do you do at a PCM? If somebody goes to one, what can they expect?

LEANNE: There's worship, there's the practice of the Presence, and we see God move. You mentioned Katherine Kuhlman's meetings - you know where she saw physical healings . . . . It was so wonderful. We're seeing emotional healings like that . . . . and on that scale, too. And they're also called out. It is just the most amazing thing . . .. you know, where God is . . . . "This is what He's doing right here . . . . He's healing a birth trauma here . . .. He's healing a misogyny here . . . . a lesbian neurosis here". Physical . . . . you know . . . . sometimes there will be physical healing, but mostly it's emotional. There'll be those renouncing self-hatred and those who will be gaining a sense of being. Then we'll be seeing the healing of memories - incredible healings, the most incredible healings!

DAVID: So, it's like a worship service, or is it like training?

LEANNE: Yeah, they're singing. Oh, this Connie and Patsy! I've got the most precious worship team! We have that worship - a lot of worship and the Holy Spirit just moves so softly . . . . it's the most amazing thing . . . . we never get over being amazed.

DAVID: Is there teaching mixed in like you have been doing here?

LEANNE: Oh, I do all of this teaching, yeah. Mario teaches, Clay teaches. We have Jean Holtz who does a lot of teaching in this whole area of codependency and ACOA in the context of incarnational reality.

DAVID: So you have worship, teaching and ministry.

LEANNE: Right. They go five days, Monday through Friday, somewhere. We can only do . . . . it takes an immense amount of energy, so we can only do so many a year. Oh my goodness, what God does in those schools.

DAVID: Are you training people to go out and then start ministries?

LEANNE: Yes. Yes, indeed.

DAVID: And the people who are now on your team are those future ministers?

LEANNE: Right. They go out now - Clay and Mary and Colleen are going to New Zealand and Australia. I just can't go anymore. Not much. I'm going to Europe twice this year. Three times I've been to Denmark. We get invitations literally from all over the world and there are so few we can take. We really pray over which ones we can take. I just have to conserve. The main thing I'm to do now is to minister to leaders and to write. Then more and more my team is taking over.

DAVID: Thank you very much.

LEANNE: Well, it's been wonderful.